"We're idiots, kid, especially when it comes to the people we love," Hopper answers with a bit of a grin. "Don't take it as an insult, it's kinda just the way of the world."

Not wanting kids is a valid reason, which Hopper knows Steve will understand when he's got a little more distance from the conversation. Still, he feels for him. Being a dad has been the greatest source of pain in Hopper's life, but it's also been the greatest source of joy.

"I don't think anyone knows until they're either holding a kid or having a conversation like this," he answers. "And it's a rough way to realize either way."